Teaching in VR
The aim of this episode is to showcase how VR is being used in higher education now and where the future of VR may be.
Show Transcript
[MUSIC PLAYING]
ANDREW COLETTI: Hello, and welcome to this episode
of The T in Teaching.
This episode is focused on teaching in virtual reality.
I interview two of the leading professors
of teaching in VR from Temple University, Bora
Ozkan and Bertrand Guillotin.
Bora Ozkan is an associate professor
who teaches financial technology and corporate finance.
Professor Ozkan was one of the first people
to take an interest in teaching in VR and the first Temple
professor to teach in VR back in 2020.
BORA OZKAN: We don't want to bring new technology just
to have a new technology.
We want to bring with a purpose.
ANDREW COLETTI: Bertrand Guillotin
is an associate professor and academic director
for the International Business and Administration program.
He taught an international business class
on financial disruptions in the summer of 2022.
BERTRAND GUILLOTIN: About three years ago, I
created a new course on disruptions,
and disruptions that happen, of course, in business,
in society, and how do we respond to them strategically.
And I was like, wait a second.
VR is a disruption.
ANDREW COLETTI: If you have any questions about this episode
or would like to contribute to further episodes of The T
in Teaching, please email me at andrew.coletti@temple.edu.
Thank you for listening, and please enjoy.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
All right, thank you guys so much for joining us
for this newest episode of The T in Teaching.
I have Bertrand Guillotin and Bora Ozkan with me.
Today, we're going to be talking about virtual reality
and teaching in higher education.
Both of you have taught at least one course now.
You guys are the first people at Temple
to really teach a course.
So thank you for joining me so much for this episode.
BERTRAND GUILLOTIN: You're welcome.
BORA OZKAN: Thanks for having us.
We're excited.
ANDREW COLETTI: So we really want
to start off by kind of drumming up
a little bit of support for VR.
And since you guys are the first two people to teach in VR,
I thought we'd kind of start with what is
the process of teaching in VR?
Now, Bora, I know that you specifically
kind of got the ball rolling.
You had to build the support.
You had to pitch it to people to get this into reality
or into virtual reality.
So can you talk a little bit about what that process was
like, what were kind of the struggles you dealt with,
and how did you succeed?
BORA OZKAN: Sure.
How much time do you have?
No, I'll start shortly.
So it goes back to I've been teaching cases for a while now,
and I'm a big supporter of case teaching in an MBA
education and graduate business school education.
And once we started teaching online,
there was always a disconnect.
Somehow, it was not giving the same feeling
as in-person teaching.
So that's how it started back in 2019 when
we visited the Temple Library.
They had VR samples over there, so we
looked at a virtual classroom, and then it clicked.
So why don't we try virtual classroom for case discussions?
So that's how it started.
A lot of work behind the scenes--
so we had so many people.
The way we started is not just to implement VR,
but, OK, we had a use case that we thought
this technology may help.
Instead of trying to work around VR,
we try to work around the class we have and how can we
introduce VR into the class.
So we spent a lot of time designing the course,
from asynchronous activities to synchronous activities.
Long story short, come March 2020--
the first week of March 2020 was the first class we had in VR.
That was the lockdown week.
And we tried our first VR-- live VR class
when everybody was locked down at home.
And coincidentally, we were the only ones on campus
because we created a virtual lecture
hall that replicated one of the classrooms
at Temple with the Philadelphia skyline.
So the students were like, Wow, how ironic is that?
Everybody is stuck home, and we feel like we're back on campus.
So that was interesting.
ANDREW COLETTI: All right.
Thank you so much.
Now, I know you were leading the charge.
Bertrand, you kind of came in as the cavalry later.
What was that like for you?
I mean, you weren't at the spearhead of going into VR,
but you jumped in, and you taught a course as well.
So what was that like for you?
BERTRAND GUILLOTIN: Well, it was interesting.
And the process was better than expected
in terms of the technical challenges
that I expected to have.
To make a long story short, I also teach with cases.
I think cases make a lot of sense
in connecting the practice with reality and theory.
But I think the most important was
the fact that about three years ago, I
created a new course on disruptions,
and disruptions that happen, of course, in business,
in society, and how do we respond to them strategically.
And I was like, wait a second.
VR is a disruption.
So if I were to use a course, that course
would be ideal to not just talk about disruptions,
but experience them as well.
So for me, it was better than expected.
The students loved it, absolutely loved it.
And I think we actually had richer discussions in class
about some of the social disruptions
or other disruptions impacting business.
ANDREW COLETTI: Great, great.
Now, both of you taught a different type of course.
So you can correct me if I'm wrong
but, Bora, you taught a financial technology course.
As you just said, you taught a course on disruptions,
I believe, in international business specifically?
BERTRAND GUILLOTIN: Yes, correct.
ANDREW COLETTI: So both of those kind of have an overlap of VR.
For you, it's technology.
For you, it was disruption.
Were these courses that you had taught
before in person or asynchronously or on Zoom,
specifically?
And what was the process like kind of porting that over
into virtual reality?
What kind of thing did you have to think about pedagogically
or androgogically?
BORA OZKAN: So there were a lot of thought process,
both intentional and some of them, actual outcomes,
were unintentional.
So I had been teaching fintech class for a couple of semesters
before we tested on.
And again, because of the technology,
fintech, blockchain is the hot topic.
And the disruption is there, too,
so that was a ripe place to start.
But our goal was--
OK, so if we have this kind of lack of conversation
or engagement in Zoom, because sometimes when you
look at the camera, they're not looking directly at you,
or they're not talking with each other.
That was the first thing we wanted to achieve
is, we want students to talk to each other
rather than just talk to the professor.
So how can we create that engagement and come up with it?
Of course, there are a lot of challenges.
But the good example I always give is the first class we had.
And the first-- one of the first times students
put on the headsets, and we are in the classroom.
And one of the good things about VR,
it has surround sound technology,
so it's a directional sound.
So when somebody speaks from-- and the sound
comes that direction, your avatar is you.
You automatically turn that way.
So that's a natural reaction.
So when all the students put the headsets on,
and some student sitting in the back row, she says something,
and everybody turned around.
And her first reaction was, oh, my God, everybody
is looking at me.
I mean, she was just-- didn't think about it.
It was just the first reaction.
And I think that was one of the key moments for us, a-ha,
this is what we wanted to achieve.
And this is what we're trying to get here.
So the whole goal is for students
to experience this discussion where they are feeling more
connected with each other, which I think eventually
improves the learning outcomes.
ANDREW COLETTI: Yeah.
Yeah, no, I totally agree.
And I remember that moment in that class.
And we were kind of like, OK, so it's working, right?
We're getting somewhere.
Bertrand, how about you?
BERTRAND GUILLOTIN: Yes, so I had taught the class
two years before on an online basis, so with the Zoom,
two-dimensional with distractions
that only increased during the COVID pandemic,
whether it was a dog barking, the kids
at home for some adult learners, or the mix of the gym,
the work, the school in one household.
So the ability to focus during that first online class
on disruptions was not ideal, to be honest with you.
VR, based on what Bora just described very well,
was totally different.
We felt completely focused on each other,
on that basically 360 environment being in the class.
And for me, the time that I spent
was on the activities, the engagement of the students
in the VR portion of the class.
We still used Zoom before and after.
And I spent a lot of time creating that environment,
making sure that if we talked about disruptions in India,
for example, we had a background with an Indian monument
that some people knew, some didn't, but most of them
could relate to.
And so we transported ourselves in the business environment.
ANDREW COLETTI: Yeah, no, I remember also with your class,
you were a lot bigger because you
were doing this international course on kind
of creating a visual atmosphere of what was going on.
Now, VR, I know that there's a lot that's being developed.
And we've been doing a lot with your class, Bora,
with trying to put up a visual display of what
the students are learning, kind of like a board,
almost like a chalkboard of what they're learning,
taking notes actively as class is developing.
With your class, because it was international,
we were transporting them to Morocco or wherever
you were talking about.
And I think both of you kind of hit
at this one point, which is engagement.
You want to draw engagement.
And it's really active engagement,
not just they're paying attention,
but they're involved in the class.
So I want to talk a little bit about that technology
that's being used and how it drums up
that immersive experience and what else you'd
like to see further as VR develops to increase
that immersive experience.
Bora, you want to start?
BORA OZKAN: Sure.
Well, a few things is, there are currently
some challenges when we run.
There are good things, and there are some challenges
that needs to be worked on.
The good things-- again, one of the unintended consequences
is students are free of distractions.
In a classroom, the research shows
that the story, if you can do a storytelling,
it resonates a lot more with students,
and then remembering that topic or achieving the learning
outcomes is a lot more positively impacted
with the storytelling.
So in Zoom, actually, I like those stories
when the cat walks in.
And those are the things that students
will remember the class and relate the topic to those.
But you can do a lot more in VR.
One of the things we realized is students in Zoom
are typically distracted, I, myself, too.
So when I'm in a three-hour or two-hour Zoom meeting,
I get distracted.
I try to turn on my laptop and look at the emails.
The phone is ringing, and you're just everywhere.
And at some point, you lose track of what
was happening in the Zoom.
The good thing in VR is your students
are free of distractions.
There are no emails.
There are no cell phones going around there distracting them.
They don't have any option but to be there physically,
virtually, in that without any distractions.
So that's a good thing.
And then if we can create a lot more immersive experience
in that classroom while they're in Zoom, it is going to be--
the stickiness of the learning outcomes
is going to be a lot longer.
Like Bertrand is trying, and if you think about--
and we're both using the case discussion method.
But if we can kind of achieve cases where students get to see
that experience-- what was the story happening in a case
in writing--
maybe we can put them, immerse them,
in a live video, what happens with the case.
So that's the future.
That relies a little bit on us to write cases or develop cases
with this VR technology in mind.
The other challenge is still--
the price is still-- although it has come down a lot,
it's still not equitable for everybody.
So we want-- expect the prices to go down.
And we want them lighter.
So what we realized is, after some 30, 40 minutes,
it creates a little bit of fatigue.
So we don't want to have an experience more than 30,
40 minutes.
So if we can have headsets get a little bit lighter
and able to take notes.
One of the key lacking things for students is they cannot
take notes.
A lot of students learn better if they can take notes.
Currently, we are still working on putting
some sticky notes and some voice notes
to yourself during the class.
But if we can create this better or easier for students
to take notes while they're immersing, I think it will--
we can do a lot better.
ANDREW COLETTI: Yeah.
No, I think those are great points.
And before I let you respond, I kind of
want to talk a little bit about what
you were talking about in your style of teaching.
You were using the Harvard case study model, if I'm correct.
And one of the things you mentioned
is kind of when you're in VR, even if you look away
and you look through the window in virtual reality,
you're never out of the classroom, really.
You can't lose as much focus as you
might be able to in real life.
But one of the things that we do in your class--
and I know there's the flip side to it, which is that they're
not taking their own notes-- is we're putting up
notes in front of them to constantly remind,
this is what we were talking about,
and this is what Joe, the guy next to you, just said.
So you can't really get too, too lost in what
the class discussion is.
So that kind of creates this coherence and continuity
for it.
So, Bertrand, I kind of want to talk-- so you've
taught the course one time now.
If you were to go back now kind of--
and we experienced that there is a limitation of how much you
can do in VR-- how would you kind of adjust your teaching
style around that?
BERTRAND GUILLOTIN: I think we could add some music.
The local context, local culture matters
a great deal in terms of business, in terms of strategy.
That would be a plus.
And in terms of adjusting the teaching style,
listening more, talking less, which I tend to be engaged
in the discussions, which is a good thing.
I think the students love it.
But after two or three sessions in VR, the students really--
they basically take off with the discussion.
They're very comfortable with each other,
with the environment, and they actually want even more time
than the 30 or 40 minutes.
It's hard to get them back in the regular Zoom class
environment after the VR week four or week five.
So, if anything, I would consider that.
Technologically speaking, if we had
a faster way to transition between Zoom and VR,
it would be great.
I don't know if Zoom is working on this,
but it would be very positive to just click and then, boom,
you're there.
ANDREW COLETTI: Boom, you're in it, right.
BERTRAND GUILLOTIN: We'll see.
But I would say it's pretty seamless the way it is.
One point that I wanted to emphasize also
is that the waiting room in the VR technology platform
is very beneficial.
It allows the students to basically transition to that VR
environment, which is more real than it is virtual, to me.
And so the distractions are put aside,
as Bora mentioned, but also, all the other worries and things
that they're basically focusing on.
So they're thinking about their interaction.
They're looking at the avatars.
And then they're basically transported immediately.
So I think the ability to transition with that waiting
room is definitely extremely beneficial.
ANDREW COLETTI: Yeah.
Now, Bora, again, you've taught it multiple times,
so I'm really interested to hear your perspective on that.
You've had classes that were a little bit more quiet,
and you've had now ones that were much more talkative.
And one of the things I think is really interesting about VR
is it kind of breaks down the teacher-student barrier
that there sometimes is, because you're all a floating VR
avatar.
So what do you think about kind of adjusting that teaching
style?
BORA OZKAN: So first thing I want to actually
mention, going back to how important that board for us
was--
on the first iteration, there was no board.
And I insisted that, because even
in live teaching, case teaching, before we start the class,
we always sit down and plan the board.
So in actual our classrooms, we have
whiteboards or blackboards.
So we think about how we're going to divide that board
and guide students in a way that we make sure that we touch
points that they're important.
So I think having that in a VR is crucial and important,
because not only students can actually--
maybe they cannot take notes.
But they can actually watch the recording.
And what we do is, we take the talking
points of the main discussion talks,
and we put it on the board.
And we print it and make it available.
So students have a reference from the classroom.
So I think that was one of the things.
Going back to your question, the important thing
we should keep in mind, just like any other technology,
we should not bring a new technology, a new innovation,
into the classroom just because it's new.
We should bring it with keeping in mind, Why are we doing this?
What are we trying to achieve?
In this particular example, our goal
was to achieve increased engagement.
So we thought this technology would
help us achieve that engagement and make students feel
like they are sitting next to each other,
they are immersed into the discussion,
and they feel like they're surrounded by their classmates.
Just one quick example in the last class
we had a couple of weeks ago, one of the new,
I think, developments in the VR avatars
is you can see your hands, even without the hand pieces.
But one thing I realized fairly near is I have a digital watch,
and it pops up on the hand piece, on the avatar.
And students were sitting next to each other,
and they were all amazed.
Oh, my God, I feel like I'm sitting next to my classmates.
And one student was like, I feel like you're
sitting right next to me.
Can you see the time on my hand?
He was so into the moment that he
felt like the student, his classmates,
could see the watch, which actually, you can.
So it was very-- so actually another story
that tells how students feel they're immersed.
So that's the thing we want to achieve.
We don't want to bring new technology just
to have a new technology.
We want to bring with a purpose.
ANDREW COLETTI: Yeah.
So I just wanted to give a little bit of credence.
So he's using a different app than what
you had used, Bertrand, in your class, which was Chimera.
Now we're using an app called Elevate.
And one of the features that I'm sure you
know your students have had fun with
is the ability to throw a ball around the room to actually--
and they can catch it and whatnot.
And I'm sure they've had a lot of fun with that.
That creates the immersive engagement
that we're looking for.
Something I want to go back to that you mentioned
prior was equity.
So you said about we don't want to just use new technology
because it's new.
We want to have a real application for it,
a meaningful application.
How can VR maybe be used a little bit more
to create equity in the classroom?
And, Bertrand, do you want to start with that?
BERTRAND GUILLOTIN: Sure.
Well, to me, especially for the international business context,
a lot of students don't have the time and/or the money
to go to those places, including the emerging markets that
represent more than half of the global economy today
and are growing fast, even with the ups and downs.
So to me, it brings them to the same level as the others.
At least they can see and maybe hear how it feels like.
Videos are very, very useful also for them to prepare.
And then we all talk about the things that we know
and the things we don't know.
We acknowledge also as faculty when
we use VR that we're not doing this for every class.
So there will be learning opportunities on both sides.
And I think for the students, it's actually
recomforting-- or comforting, recomforting,
and maybe inspiring to see that the faculty are taking
so much extra time to prepare something that they believe in
and to increase engagement and equity because,
again, if you look at international travel
as a luxury, which for most people it is,
then you at least bridge the gap,
and you expose them more than when you
are using other technologies.
So VR, I think, brings people more closely together.
ANDREW COLETTI: Yeah, I think that's definitely
one of the things that we've been kind of seeing and pushing
for is to--
like you said, I mean, I know your class
was international business.
So we were trying to take people to the location of where
that case study was that week in particular.
But one of the really interesting features
of virtual reality is being able to put you
in a 360-degree recorded environment.
So for example, we could go to Morocco
and have recorded footage, and you could be there.
Or you could-- for a sports tourism and hospitality
management class, we could take you to a big concert,
and we could look and tell you how
it's all spread out and everything like that.
Or we could take you to a courtroom,
and you could examine legal procedures in a law class.
So that's one way that we could see
VR being applied in the future.
I want you guys to see if you have any ideas of where
VR can go going forward.
Where can it be applied outside of the Harvard case study
model?
I know that's what you guys have been doing,
and it's worked well.
But obviously, again, it can be used
in a lot of different ways.
So where do you see it being used in the future?
And perhaps maybe what technologies
need to be implemented or would you like to see
be implemented for it to be used in those specific ways?
BORA OZKAN: Well, so there are already
some use cases in VR in medical education
or whenever there's a hands-on training,
you can actually build a VR experience.
You can go a little bit deep dive.
And I know in training, I know in human resources,
there are tools that people train how to interview styles.
So what are the things that, again,
going back to storytelling or creating an environment
to replicate the real life is what you can achieve with VR.
So we need a little bit more resources.
Equity is important because we got
to understand it's not going to be for everybody.
Every student has a different learning path.
Some learn better with writing.
Some learn better with asynchronously watching.
Some are live immersed, in person, online, Zoom, or VR.
So the thing is, the way I see it in the future,
VR is not going to replace anything.
But it's going to be a good supplement to all the tools
we're going to have in the future for students
to better learn or better achieve the learning outcomes.
Another-- some use cases, what's going to help
is we improve the avatars.
So I think one of the issues right now
with some of the feedback we hear,
students want to see that facial expressions and body
language better in avatars.
So as we see better improved avatars,
not only it's going to create that-- replicate that
human interaction, but it can also
help students to better express themselves.
Sometimes students will be more comfortable
if they want to create avatars to their liking,
so however they want to express themselves,
whether that's blue hair or whatever
outfit they want to put.
So it can create that.
And I think there's a huge potential
as this technology improves, we have more people working on,
because this is not an easy task.
So we were lucky at Temple University.
We had the resources available for us,
and the dean's office was behind us.
In a given class, we have probably currently
around 10 people working behind the scenes to make this happen.
Now, obviously, to make it more mainstream,
we need to work on a lot of the technical issues
and improve them.
So that's what we are trying to achieve, improve it.
Make it more available for anybody to pick up,
and just like Zoom, you just do it yourself
and then run a classroom.
ANDREW COLETTI: Yeah, yeah.
Great.
Bertrand, how about you?
So for me, if you look at the case method in terms
of teaching and pedagogy, I would say in the past,
and still some cases are efficient, but they are static.
They are static in the sense that a protagonist
is somewhere.
We have moved sometimes from that static situation
to a dynamic one, where we have a live case.
The protagonist comes to the classroom
to have discussion with students and faculty.
I think the next level could be to go where the protagonist is.
So if you're talking about international business,
we visit some plants or supply chains overseas from the case
so that the students see how it feels like to be basically
confronted to the environment.
And with that, the additional benefit,
you can also be in, for example, the strategy
room, as we call it, of companies
where the executives are getting the different inputs
and having those complex decisions to make.
Or even the boardroom-- we talk about the boardroom
in strategy, but how many students have actually
seen it on a regular basis?
Few of them.
So same thing-- we have plenty of opportunities.
I think, as Bora mentioned, it depends
what you want to achieve with your class and your students.
But I think Temple has been innovative.
It's one way to stay innovative.
And I really like using VR for that purpose.
BORA OZKAN: But think about that global business environment.
So a multinational company has locations,
and problems may arise from Brazil to China to India
to France.
Imagine-- and physically, if you're in the shoes
of a protagonist, you cannot go to all the places within
an hour.
But with VR, actually, you can show them--
step by step, you can immerse them into Brazil, then
to China, to India, and then finally come
to the boardroom in France.
That's something you can achieve,
even you couldn't do it with in person.
ANDREW COLETTI: Yeah, no.
I think that's a great point.
It can transport you, and it can allow you to do things
that you could never do before, which is kind
of similar to teaching in VR.
It's not like you get experience from Zoom to really transfer
over to teaching in VR.
So I want to end on this.
To all the professors out there that are interested in VR
or maybe think that they could apply to it,
but they're a little wary, or maybe there's a lot of pushback
like you experienced, what would your advice
be to them getting engaged in VR, teaching a class in VR,
or doing activities in VR?
What would you kind of say to them
to ease their worries maybe?
Bertrand, let's start with you.
BERTRAND GUILLOTIN: I would say it's actually easier
than you would think.
Number two, if we are teaching, I
think the best teachers are oftentimes the best learners.
So we need to actually show and lead by example
that we continue on learning, not just
the theories and the case-related method.
We're also what's happening with technology so that we don't
disconnect from what really excites people
and the students in the digital generation.
Last, but not least, I would say consider the benefits
first and foremost, not the challenges.
There will be challenges.
That's clear.
But the benefits are what you need to focus on, the outcome.
And I think the outcomes are extremely
positive for both faculty and students.
ANDREW COLETTI: Excellent, thank you.
Bora, how about you?
BORA OZKAN: I totally agree with Bertrand.
It's a lot easier than it may sound.
And the outcomes, I think, are very rewarding.
In the end, as a professor, all we want
is to provide better experience for the students.
And if they can keep in mind that this
is a tool that provides a better experience-- learning
experience for the students, the rest is not that hard at all.
ANDREW COLETTI: All right, great.
Thank you guys so much for joining us
for this new episode of The T in Teaching.
Hope to have you guys back sometime soon.
And hope that we can continue to do some more content on VR.
So thank you very much.
BORA OZKAN: You're welcome.
BERTRAND GUILLOTIN: Thank you.
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