The Student Perspective: Professor Response
This episode features the faculty response to the students experience and testimony from the last two episodes.
Show Transcript
Audio Transcript
Andrew ColettiHello and welcome back to this episode of the T in Teaching. This episode is a continuation of a series of podcasts focused on the student’s perspective in education. Unlike the last two episodes that featured undergraduate students, this episode will feature two veteran professors from Temple University. Professor Mike Schirmer and Wayne Williams join the podcast to discuss the student experience or how they've grown into the job and strategies to serve your students better.
Andrew ColettiOne final note. This episode marks the end of season two of the T in Teaching podcast. We return in August for season three, covering more topics in higher education and hearing new and exciting voices from the field. Thank you for listening and please enjoy. All right. Thank you so much for joining me, guys. Wayne, Mike, glad to have you on this episode of the T in Teaching.
Wayne WilliamsGreat to be here. Thank you for having me. Drew. Guess what? I'm really happy I'm here with Mike. I'm a fan favorite.
Andrew ColettiWell, you guys are both well known among the faculty and the students alike. So glad that you guys can be here and represent Fox faculty and talk to some of the students. As you guys know, I spent the last month working with the team, interviewing a group of students from the undergraduate Fox programs. Seeing kind of what college is like for them, where they're at, what's working and what isn't working.
Andrew ColettiAnd hopefully you guys got a chance to kind of listen. And for anyone who hasn't listened in those two podcasts should have dropped, I really strongly suggest you get a chance to listen to it. But now that we've heard from the students, it's kind of our time to talk about how we can meet them where they're at. So let's start, general, and then we'll get a little bit more specific if that works.
Andrew ColettiSo let's start with Esther Kim. She talked a little bit about setting expectations and what it's like getting started in the semester. So here's what Esther had to say.
Esther KimI think some of my favorites and then classes that are kind of centered around group projects, which might be a hot take, but I really like Professor Sharma's class for integrated business applications.
Andrew ColettiHe's going to love that, you said!
Esther KimBecause, I mean, it was a great class. I think he really had he set expectations much higher than a lot of my other professors had in the past, which I really appreciated. Maybe not in the moment, but looking at how you do and having one set group throughout an entire class really gives you the opportunity to become friends with people and to network with them. On another level rather than just like sitting next to them.
Andrew ColettiLet's talk a little bit about setting those expectations and standards for your students. Obviously, you have to set them early and you have to reinforce them often, but how do you set those expectations? What are those expectations and how does it all work for you guys?
Mike ShirmerWell, one of the things that I've done and continue to do early on is to describe to my students how this course integrated business applications is different from other coursework. And it's designed and the way I deliver it is based on the concept of translational learning and that, you know, so the expectations are automatically higher for students most and I tell them most of the coursework that they completed to that point because this is a required course in the core, was that the other courses were based on transactional learning.
Mike ShirmerAnd so they perform, you know, a calculation and they get a grade for it where they complete a task and they get a grade for it and translational learning requires them to practice ahead of time. And so I put them through all of these different, what I call ungraded developmental coursework. You know, for a lot of folks, that's new.
Mike ShirmerThey're not used to that concept. And then again, with what we heard Esther Kim say, you know, maybe not at the time. They appreciate that. But once I think they realize that it's all geared towards developing the knowledge, skills and abilities that they need to be successful in the long run, in the course and beyond, they can really appreciate that.
Mike ShirmerAnd this is particularly, you know, I have them go through these assignments both as an individual and as a group. So we practice and then we apply and then we go into the graded elements. And just like her, again, a lot of students can't appreciate it at the time, but I think when they come out and it might even be a few years later that they can appreciate that, but that's one of the ways that I sort of raise the bar.
Wayne WilliamsYeah, I think for me, if Professor Schirmer uses the concept of translational learning, I kind of use it in the accounting courses for interpretive learning, right? So I think ultimately what we're both trying to do is develop critical thinking skills. And so many times students want to know how to do the calculation, and that is not what we're doing, actually.
Wayne WilliamsSo the calculation, what I mean by interpretive learning is the calculation. You have to interpret the facts. So we're not doing math problems. What we're actually doing are word problem. I could change one fact in that problem, and now it's going to cause you to approach the same calculation again, but you're going to have to interpret it differently.
Wayne WilliamsSo the way to communicate that right from the beginning is where's your grade going to come from? So about less than half of your grade is going to come from your outside the classroom effort. So doing homework is outside the classroom, doing the reading that's graded, that's outside of the classroom. You're going to get part of your grade just based on what you do outside of that classroom.
Wayne WilliamsThat has nothing to do with taking an exam. So I'm assessing both effort and mastery throughout the course. So if you're applying yourself throughout the semester, that's going to help to build your grade. And it doesn't mean that you have to have high scores on all of the exams because you've got to have that foundation. So I equate it to like swimming, right?
Wayne WilliamsSo at the very beginning I say, listen, once you start the class, it's like jumping in the pool. And my job is to get you to touch the wall. And along the way you may actually feel like I'm not going to make it. So at that point I'm coaching you to get you to the wall. And if you follow the instructions that I'm giving you, what's going to happen is you're going to touch the wall and you're going to have more than 80% as your final grade.
Wayne WilliamsSo that kind of gives them kind of like a metric for you have to complete the course not do well on one assignment or exam.
Mike ShirmerI like the analogy of the coach. I use that too, and especially early on in, you know, developmental coursework when I ask my pole and I say, All right, so who's ever played a sport, who's ever played a musical instrument, who's ever been in theater? What does it take to be good and great? It takes practice. And so think of me more as your coach, your mentor, your guide to this journey, not some sage on the stage, right?
Wayne WilliamsIt's right.
Mike ShirmerThat's what I'm there for. I like the interpretive learning because that's the other thing I tell my students is that, you know, it's not enough for you to be able to perform that calculation. I'm going to ask you what does that mean and what do you do with that data and how do you turn that data into information that you can then use to help make decisions for an organization?
Mike ShirmerOr in the case of the course, I teach the simulation where they're actually expected to manage a company through several rounds of decision making.
Andrew ColettiYeah, I love both of what you guys talked about specifically Mike, talking about those ungraded assignments that are kind of low stakes, as you put it, which just lower the barrier for students to get involved in the class. And it seems like the guiding principle is getting them involved Is the learning right And the same for you, Wayne, as well.
Andrew ColettiAnd what I really liked about your entire analogy with swimming is that you make it very clear what the objective is. It's to, quote, touch that wall right. And that's an end to that to both me. And what you guys were were talking about is the same thing, this transactional learning, but the clarity and that was something that came up with another student.
Andrew ColettiJaiman in one of the undergraduates, he was actually a sophomore, had this to say on the matter.
Jaiman KondisettyOne other thing that I have really appreciated about my professors this semester was just being very straightforward.
Jaiman Kondisetty I Had Two Quizzes Today And Everything On Those Quizzes Was Things We Talked About The President Taking Questions About And Like We Done Multiple Practice Problems On Them. So It Was Like It Was Nice From Like. When I'm Taking Another Class In The. Past Year Or Even In High School Where It's Like He Never.spoke About This In Class. There Was A Homework Problem About It, But We Never Taught It To Me. And I Just Really Appreciate A Professor Goes Through Everything That They're Going To Test On, Which Is Very Nice That All My Professors Are Doing That This Semester.Andrew Coletti So how do you personally balance and ensure that students are staying focused on that without necessarily spoon feeding them all the answers and holding their hand along that course?
Wayne WilliamsYeah, I think that that's a really good point, right, because you can get lost in the course. So one habit I have is actually on a regular basis, I literally show where we are in the course. So where are we? What are the learning objectives? I go over those learning objectives. How does the coursework that we're actually engaged in now, how does it relate back to the overall learning?
Wayne WilliamsAnd then I try to tie that back into some current events so you know where is the whatever the topic is, how is that actually happening in the real world? So not only the examples in the textbook, but is there some current events and along the way, especially teaching courses like taxation, and you may have an event that happens in case that comes up, you can bring that back into the classroom.
Wayne WilliamsLet me highlight the exact subject matter that we're covering. And of course, so by doing that, I can then get some dialog going about the topic, do what Professor Sherman said. So now I have them thinking about the topic differently and now they can use it and apply it. So by making sure we go over the course syllabus, not just at the beginning but also through canvas, making sure the course is well structured throughout every week, knowing what's upcoming and the next week.
Wayne WilliamsSometimes I even give a highlight of what is to be anticipated over the next few weeks. If there's a big project coming due, I try to use not only the online tools but also the lecture in order to reinforce it.
Andrew ColettiGreat.
Mike ShirmerYeah, I, I agree. It's super important to have good structure in several places. Of course, the syllabus needs to be fully developed, complete with a road map to guide them to success that needs to be mirrored in the course site and canvas. And then those elements need to be reinforced in the class meetings. You know, where one of the things I always start the class meeting is let's start with a review of some of the things we accomplished over the course of the last week.
Mike ShirmerAll right. And then brings it into the current topics. Tell them what the plans are for the week when things are going to be. Do remind them of that. And look you know and how this links to the future weeks. So sure if we're in a in the core of the moment but we're also looking back and looking forward at the same time and for graded assignments.
Mike ShirmerYou know I will do the mapping for them is how those relate to the course learning outcomes and then how those relate to program outcomes too, because a lot of what we do is linked to the program outcomes that guide them towards success and with the developmental items. You know, I do have to remind them that they are designed to for them to be successful in the graded elements and that I that they need to take these things seriously because I also give them these are opportunities for them to ask questions of me for clarity or guidance to to get them to success.
Wayne WilliamsThe Professor sure is showing off now because he kind of gave some behind the scenes of what was the secret sauce. He said mapping. So there are no questions, Drew, that are like unintended, like which is given busywork, like each and every question. You know, the student pointed out, really has something to do with what we're going to ask on that exam to assess where they are learning, getting mastery of the subject matter.
Wayne WilliamsAnd we've thought about that before the course even was open.
Andrew ColettiYeah, that planning aspect seems imperative to both of your courses and really your pedagogy overall in the way that you teach. And two things that keep coming up. Specifically when you said this, talking a lot about the real world is that it's really like touching the wall, as you mentioned before, that's the outcome, preparing them for the real world.
Andrew ColettiHow do you find the ability to push them further? Julie McKenna gave us a really interesting perspective on what she's looking for in college.
Julia MckennaOne of my favorite things to think about sometimes when I get down is that great people push you to be great also because they make you feel that you too can achieve greatness, right? That that idea of self-efficacy, that what you believe you can accomplish, you can do. That is something that I love about Temple. The fact that they are constantly encouraging their students to take that next step, to push themselves a little bit further when it comes to whether the school helps me with what I really want to do with my life, I'd say absolutely.
Julie MckennaI wasn't sure what I wanted to do when I graduated with my liberal arts degree, I wasn't sure. So I was asking my parents similarly to my I was like, I have no idea what I want to do, but I have so much background in entertainment. My sister actually went to the University of the Arts in Center City for her bachelor's in musical theater, and she loved Philadelphia because there's so much art here.
Julia MckennaThere's so much culture here, there's so much self-expression in the city. And for me, as somebody who wants to go into entertainment management that's completely beautiful, completely great, I want to be part of that culture. I want to be part of that innovation, bringing people's real life stories to the forefront of people's minds and basically just helping people achieve that flow where you really feel like everything that you're doing is at the perfect level, that you're at.
Andrew ColettiSo I know it's a big ask for professors to really bring the most out of their students. It's obviously something that I think you guys would both agree is important. Yeah. Wayne Mike, how do we do that?
Wayne WilliamsYeah. So day one, one of the first things, right? So everybody does the introduction and everybody thinks it's like, meaningless, like, Oh, what's my name and where am I from? And what's my major? And so most of my classes are upper class courses, right? So they're in the junior and senior year. And on day one I always ask them, Drew, what are you going to do after you graduate?
Wayne WilliamsAnd so there's two things that I'm trying to signal their. Number one, I want you to assume you're going to get through this course, Right? So don't worry about this course, Right. Because we're going to do this together. And number two, you're going to graduate. And so then what do you tell out loud? Maybe it's never been something you've done before, but now you have to say it in front of your peers.
Wayne WilliamsAnd sometimes it's like, I don't know or I haven't had work experience, so I'm still trying to figure it out. And so for me, that's a great answer because each one, when the students give that, I'm actually writing that down. What it does is it allows me to anchor exactly where the baseline of each section is. So some sections are different than others, same course.
Wayne WilliamsSo now I have this anchoring mechanism that identifies some of their interests. So as I'm going through the material, I can just when I pull out my sheet at the beginning of class, I can think about who are the students in here, what's important to them to know. And so that also gives me an opportunity to talk about spouse, student, professional organizations.
Wayne WilliamsHow do you get involved in that? So I ask, is there anyone involved in the SPL allow for them to speak about their SPL? And then I also will bring in professionals that may be going to espouse that the other students who are less likely to engage, they get a real opportunity to see someone from the industry come in and talk about internships, job opportunities.
Wayne WilliamsSo now they can actually say, you know what, I could do that. And all I have to do is send in my resume and it's upcoming. And so that usually helps the students to kind of see themselves post-graduation.
That's a great question. I do the entails as well, but I think I'm going to take that one and kind of spice mine up a little bit because I usually end with, you know, tell us a fun fact about yourself, which is great and can get laughs right and get people in and actually helps me get a better understanding of the diversity of the type of folks that we have in the class.
Mike ShirmerBut I like that where, you know, where do you see yourself in five years? You know, almost like an interview. Question. The interestingly, just today, you know, I was having a discussion with the students about the extra credit that's, you know, baked into the course. And the idea here is that that these students are involved in these student professional organizations.
Mike ShirmerThey go to events where there's a speaker. And so we give them the opportunity to do a brief write-up about the speaker, the topic and some key takeaways. And I tell them one page, double spaced, okay, let's keep it, you know, try to keep it manageable. But I said on the next page, I need you to show me some evidence that at least you've attempted to network with the speaker.
And so for in person, that could be a picture, a little screenshot or a photo of a business card. Nice. And I said, But, you know, quite frankly, a lot of times I've gone to events, I'm speaking, I run out of business cards. And so if that happens or if they don't have any at all, then show me a screenshot of a LinkedIn invitation.
Mike ShirmerI know you all have LinkedIn accounts and again, I don't need to see that they've accepted, but I at least need to see that you try to attempt to build that network out. So important, I said, because we need you to be successful. Not in that first job. We need you to have a successful career and successful professional experience.
Mike ShirmerAnd and this is one of the things that helps set the stage for that. So then you can develop those interpersonal skills. I said, for a lot of us, it may be challenging to go up to a speaker that's, you know, well-renowned in as a, you know, this great position from this organization. It takes us out of our comfort zone.
Mike ShirmerHowever, we need to be able to do that and to be able to interact with each other effectively.
Andrew ColettiYeah, I love everything you guys are saying. I love the point about anchoring it, conversation, getting to know your students and not taking the intros as something for granted, instead making it a moment where you can really personalize things, really get to know your students. And we actually heard that from a student, Maya. She told us something very similar to that.
Andrew ColettiSo let's listen in.
Maya SmithAnd I really, I really enjoy, like, what I'm learning. And I think the professors are really they're really good at helping you figure out what exactly you want to do in the field and pushing you towards like getting those internships and those professional development opportunities. Like even in my first and my S class in the spring semester, when I first got to like the curriculum, my professor saw me like I would sit in like the first or second row with my friend and she saw me.
Maya SmithShe's like, Oh, you're in my class. How would you feel about being an information technology assistant for one of my classes next? And I was like, Oh, wow. Like, that was I really wasn't expecting that because I didn't really say anything to her. I didn't like to mention that I was interested in that. And she like, felt that I had potential in that really, like pushed me to want to learn more about the media and actually be dedicated.
Andrew ColettiAs Maya said, it's not uncommon for a professor to see a student reach out, and it sounds like you guys do that all the time. And that's great to hear. But let's talk about that experience. How can a professor get better on the interpersonal side? We talk all the time about pedagogy, about assignments and assessments in terms of getting to know your students.
Andrew ColettiHow can you get better? How did you get better and how are you still getting better?
Mike ShirmerOne of the great resources we have is a tremendous wealth of resources to help us in our teaching profession, both in Fox and at Temple University. And I've taken advantage of the opportunity to have observers come into my classroom, both from the Center for the Advancement of Teaching and then peer observers from Fox. And through that process, you know, there's regardless of who you are, right, overseas, there's always an opportunity to improve.
Mike ShirmerAnd I think anyway, for faculty, we should be inquisitive in nature, I think, and looking for ways to improve our craft and getting feedback from observations I think is a real useful tool is I found it to be like that and I sort of take the page from my corporate experience in education and training, corporate education training, where that was actually part of the process.
Mike ShirmerWe would have a lot of there was a lot of team training events and so we would coach each other and, you know, do debriefs. On what went well, what didn't go well and so sort of taking that mindset and, you know, apply it in the classroom, always looking for new ways of doing it or better ways of doing what I'm doing right now.
Mike ShirmerBut I think you have to be open to that, too. And for some folks, that could be a, you know, scary proposition. I get that you're opening yourself up to what could be considered criticism, but it's how you frame it. I like to think that I apply this to my grading as well in the terms of the feedback that I give where, you know, I tell them that, you know, these are the opportunities for you to improve.
Mike ShirmerYou know, we've got some or this needs strength you could strengthen this with by doing this that you're the thing, right? So it's kind of how you sort of couch it as well and take the edge off it.
Wayne WilliamsYeah, I think it's an ongoing process, right? So the one word that comes up for me is community. It's in the mission of Temple. It's part of the values of Temple. So if I think about what's different from the beginning of my career, just in the classroom, it was more about content. And I think now it's a lot more about community.
Wayne WilliamsLike I play a role in the community so I can see if there's a Schirmer walk in the halls and it's not about what's going on in his class. It's like there's a relationship where, how are you doing? Right? And so if I can take that and use that same approach, if I'm standing in line next to a student and just not class oriented, just how are you doing?
Wayne WilliamsHow are you doing in your other classes? You know what's going on with you? You know, what are some of the activities that you did this weekend and having that kind of human approach, then it forms that community builds that trust. And by engendering that trust now knocks on the door. Here's that student. Now I can ask them more about what's their experience.
Wayne WilliamsOffice hours. For me, I always start out with the same first question. Tell me your story. How did you get to Temple? I don't even start going into the homework or anything like that. I want to know that story about how they actually came here. You know, what are some of their dreams? You find out things like, Oh, I always I love music or, you know, I wanted to I play an instrument or something that you wouldn't see that fun fact that Professor Sherman talked about.
Wayne WilliamsAnd so, to me, that's another way to engage students outside of the classroom. That's important. And so, by building community, it makes people know who you are, and that's just making yourself approachable to others, right? So, I just think of it as like moving into a new neighborhood.
Andrew ColettiI like that. I like that idea of a new neighborhood, but I really like that you framed it as community. It's funny that you say that because that's some of the reason and some of the things that we heard from the student’s community. They came here for the community and that's not in any small part. Thanks to both of you and other members of the temple community, because as you just said, when you're a part of the community, you're also part of building and maintaining and adjusting and evolving the culture and community.
Andrew ColettiAnd that's what we do at Temple. That's what people like yourselves do at Temple. So I really like everything I said. Let's end with something that I think is not new news, but something that is ubiquitous to every student. We heard from two students, specifically Nosa and Nicholas, about what makes the classroom the most enjoyable. Let's listen.
Nosa IyamuAnd I would say when professors are engaged with the class, they really make it seem like they care. Especially, I hate to sound biased, but especially with most courses, I think. And I feel like any professor I had so far was like really engaged with the students and I cared about the topics they were teaching and made sure we were well equipped for like any test or like quiz or like any project we had to do.
Nicholas SalernoI would say personally, for me, it's definitely the energy in their character. Like most of the professors that I. Have throughout my legal s tudies curriculum and even just some of the professors in the Fox School businesses, when they come to class early and they're very open, a lot of energy brightens up the room and you see other students who might be having a bad day, you know, their faces automatically light up!
Andrew ColettiSo like I said, nothing new. Happy professor makes for a happy classroom. Sure, but that's also like everything else you talked about. Easier said than done. And what the listeners don't know right now is that we're recording this on a very gloomy, rainy Monday morning, way too long into the semester.
Andrew ColettiYou guys haven't had a day off in God knows how many weeks you both are going through it. Let's talk about from the community, the individual and the individual professor. How do you all take care of yourselves or how do you try to, at least in these long semesters, is that every class you can come in, you're energized, you're excited, and therefore getting the students energized and excited.
Andrew ColettiHow do you maintain your own mental and physical health throughout a semester to stay at that form?
Wayne WilliamsI want to listen. How do you do that?
Andrew ColettiYeah. My God. Don't you start us off. Answer the question. We're all waiting for you.
Mike ShirmerI'm still a learning scholar, sure, but I can tell you how much I appreciate my colleagues. You all, you know, seeing you. Your smiley face. Professor Williams, when. When you know, we're going through the halls, and that just gives me some energy to be able to go in. Because typically I see you when I'm on my way to go to teach.
Mike ShirmerYeah, I'm between classes and, you know, just even the few seconds of interaction and just to see is this like, yeah, this is, this is good, and I can do this. I don't have to feel like I'm in isolation. Yeah.
Wayne WilliamsAnd something I was thinking I see exactly.
Mike ShirmerYou know, because sometimes you are the one you know, I tell folks, being a faculty member is you, for the most part, can pretty much manage your own game. Right? Right. You're in control of this. And yeah, you do the upfront investment and then you manage it throughout the semester does take a tremendous amount of energy and some days you give more than you get.
Mike ShirmerBut knowing it's knowing when you see your friends, your colleagues, the smiling faces, it's that's when you, it's like, yeah, now I can do this probably in the same way that, that the, the students, you know especially when they're in the group projects and you know they can interact and at least have a little bit of fun.
Wayne WilliamsYou walk in the classroom on certain days, and you can tell like where the class is. And even if I'm fired up and they're like, not fired up, I might ask, where are you?
Mike ShirmerRight. I do that, too.
Wayne WilliamsAnd so this is not a day for me to start lecturing. This is like, can I have somebody volunteer to play some music? So they come in, they turn on the music, and I'm like, Let's spend the day working, flipping the classroom, get some work done, work on the next assignment. That's to I'll then put up on the board what's come in do and so I'll have them work on their own.
Wayne WilliamsLast 5 minutes of the class, I'll turn the music down, reorient them, tell them have a great day. And so for a lot of them, it's like, Ooh, I had an exam that was coming up the next day and thank you so much for doing that. Like, you recognize it because you could see the trouble on their face.
Wayne WilliamsRight? And so that's important. Again, I think the feedback, right? So for me, the getting the feedback from students and so how do I do it? I think it's three ways there is number one, I have somebody outside who says you need to get some rest. So rest is like, right? And so for me, rest is not doing and not reading and maybe getting some sunshine because that's helpful.
Wayne WilliamsAnd so I appreciate my sunshine. And number two is caffeine is not beyond me to have a cup of coffee next do the video right during the day. And then I think the third thing that I kind of do this to stay restorative is exactly what Mike said. I mean, just engaging with the staff and, you know, going out to lunch.
Wayne WilliamsLet me go to lunch with somebody today. Let me eat lunch with somebody today. So I'm not isolated. And so, I don't allow my own troubled mind to dictate what's going on. We're all, you know, fighting to get to different goals. And so if I'm better than they can be better and vice versa. This is a learning environment in which I'm taking the energy back from them.
Andrew ColettiCame so close to saying it way. And since you don't want to say, I'll be the one to say it, what he really means to say is, if you're a student, you should also bring some energy, if you can, that come off back here to your professors. Well, it's almost like, Mike, you were right when you said at the beginning that it's kind of a two-way relationship, that you're not the arbiter of all things.
Andrew ColettiCorrect. And then all the information and just like the student is in beholden on you to bring all the energy. It goes both ways. Gentlemen, I really appreciate you coming on this podcast. I appreciate you. And I know the rest of the temple community does as well. Thank you, guys, for joining me!