The Student Perspective: Professor Response
This episode features the faculty response to the students experience and testimony from the last two episodes.
Show Transcript
DREW: Hello, and welcome back to this episode of The T
in Teaching.
This episode is a continuation of a series
of podcasts focused on the student's
perspective in education.
Unlike the last two episodes that
featured undergraduate students, this episode
will feature two veteran professors
from Temple University.
Professor Mike Schirmer and Wayne Williams
join the podcast to discuss the student experience,
how they've grown into the job, and strategies
to serve your students better.
One final note-- this episode marks
the end of season two of The T in Teaching podcast.
We will return in August for season 3,
covering more topics and higher education
and hearing new and exciting voices from the field.
Thank you for listening, and please enjoy.
All right.
Thank you so much for joining me, guys, Wayne,
Mike, glad to have you on this episode of The T in Teaching.
WAYNE WILLIAMS: Great to be here.
Thank you for having me.
Drew.
Guess what.
I'm really happy I'm here with Mike.
I'm a fan favorite.
DREW: Well, you guys are both well known among the faculty
and the students alike, so glad that you guys
can be here and represent Fox faculty
and talk to some of the students.
So as you guys know, I spent the last month
working with the team, interviewing a group of students
from the undergraduate Fox programs,
seeing what college is like for them,
where they're at, what's working, and what isn't working.
And hopefully, you guys got a chance to listen in.
For anyone who hasn't listened in,
those two podcasts should have dropped.
I really strongly suggest that you
get a chance to listen to it.
But now that we've heard from the students,
it's kind of our time to talk about how we can meet them
where they're at.
So let's start general, and then we'll
get a little bit more specific if that works.
So let's start with Esther Kim.
She talked a little bit about setting
expectations and what it's like getting started in the semester.
So here's what Esther had to say.
ESTHER KIM: I think some of my favorites
have been classes that are centered around group
projects, which might be a hot take,
but I really liked Professor Schirmer's class for integrated
business applications--
DREW: He's going to love that you said that.
ESTHER KIM: --because it was a great class.
I think he really had-- he set expectations much higher
than a lot of my other professors had
in the past, which I really appreciated,
maybe not in the moment, but looking back, I definitely do.
And having one set group throughout an entire class
really gives you the opportunity to become friends
with people and to network with them on another level
rather than just like sitting next to them.
DREW: Let's talk a little bit about setting those expectations
and standards for your students.
Obviously, you have to set them early,
and you have to reinforce them often.
But how do you set those expectations?
What are those expectations?
And how does that all work for you guys?
MIKE SCHIRMER: Well, one of the things
that I have done and continue to do early on
is to describe to my students how this course, Integrated
Business Applications, is different from other coursework.
And it's designed-- and the way I
deliver it is based on the concept
of translational learning, and so the expectations
are automatically higher for students.
And I tell them most of the coursework
that they completed to that point--
because this is a required course in the core-- was
that the other courses were based on transactional learning.
So they perform a calculation, and they get a grade for it.
Or they complete a task, and they get a grade for it.
And translational learning requires them to practice ahead
of time, and so I put them through all of these different--
what I call ungraded developmental coursework.
For a lot of folks, that's new.
They're not used to that concept, and they, again,
with what we heard Esther Kim say,
maybe not at the time they appreciate that, but once, I
think, they realize that it's all geared towards developing
the knowledge, skills, and abilities
that they need to be successful in the long run, in the course
and beyond, they can really appreciate that.
And this is particularly--
I have them go through these assignments
both as an individual and as a group.
So we practice, and then we apply.
And then we go into the graded elements.
And just like her, again, a lot of students
can't appreciate it at the time, but I think when they come out--
and it might even be a few years later that they can appreciate
that, but that's one of the ways that I sort of raise the bar.
WAYNE WILLIAMS: Yeah, I think, for me, if Professor Schirmer
uses the concept of translational learning,
I use it in accounting courses for interpretive learning.
So I think ultimately, what we're both
trying to do is develop critical thinking skills.
MIKE SCHIRMER: Absolutely.
WAYNE WILLIAMS: So many times, students
want to know how to do the calculation,
and that is not what we're doing, actually.
So the calculation-- what I mean by interpretive learning is
the calculation--
you have to interpret the facts.
So we're not doing math problems.
What we're actually doing are word problems.
I could change one fact in that problem,
and now it's going to cause you to approach
the same calculation.
But you're going to have to interpret it differently.
So the way I communicate that right from the beginning
is, where's your grade going to come from?
So about less than half of your grade
is going to come from your outside-the-classroom effort,
so doing homework is outside the classroom.
Doing the reading that's graded--
that's outside the classroom.
You're going to get part of your grade
just based on what you do outside of that classroom.
That has nothing to do with taking an exam.
So I'm assessing both effort and mastery throughout the course,
so if you're applying yourself throughout the semester, that's
going to help to build your grade.
And it doesn't mean that you have
to have high scores on all of the exams
because you're going to have that foundation,
so I equate it to swimming.
So at the very beginning, I say, listen,
once you start the class, it's like jumping in the pool,
and my job is to get you to touch the wall.
And along the way, you may actually
feel like, I'm not going to make it.
So at that point, I'm coaching you to get you to the wall.
And if you follow the instructions
that I'm giving you, what's going to happen
is you're going to touch the wall,
and you're going to have more than 80% as your final grade.
So that kind of gives them a metric
for you have to complete the course,
not do well on one assignment or exam.
MIKE SCHIRMER: I like the analogy of the coach.
I use that too, especially early on in developmental coursework.
When I asked them--
I told him, I said, all right, so who's ever played a sport?
Who's ever played a musical instrument?
Who's ever been in theater?
What does it take to be good and great?
It takes practice.
And so think of me more as your coach, your mentor, your guide
through this journey, not some sage on the stage.
WAYNE WILLIAMS: That's right.
MIKE SCHIRMER: That's what I'm there for.
I like the interpretive learning because that's
the other thing I tell my students is that it's not enough
for you to be able to perform that calculation.
I'm going to ask you, what does that mean?
And what do you do with that data,
and how do you turn that data into information that you can
then use to help make decisions for an organization
or, in the case of the course I teach, the simulation, where
they're actually expected to manage
a company through several rounds of decision-making?
DREW: Yeah, I love both of what you guys talked about,
specifically, Mike, talking about those ungraded assignments
that are kind of low stakes, as you put it,
which just lower the barrier for students
to get involved in the class.
And it seems like the guiding principle
is getting them involved is the learning and the same
for you, Wayne, as well.
And what I really liked about your entire analogy
with swimming is that you make it very clear
what the objective is.
It's to, quote, "touch that wall,"
and that's something that stood out to both of me and what you
guys were talking about is the same thing,
this transactional learning, but the clarity.
And that was something that came up with another student.
Jamin, one of the undergraduates--
he was actually a sophomore-- had this to say on the matter.
JAMIN: One other thing that I just have really
appreciated about my professors this semester-- just
being very straightforward.
I had two quizzes today, and everything on those quizzes
was things we talked about, the press
were taking questions about, and we've done multiple practice
problems on them.
So it was nice from when I've taken other classes
in the past here or even in high school where it's like, we never
spoke about this in class-- there
was a homework problem about it, but you never taught it to me.
And I just really appreciate a professor
goes through everything that they're
going to test on, which is very nice that all my professors are
doing that this semester.
DREW: So how do you personally balance and ensure
that students are staying focused
on that without necessarily spoon feeding them
all the answers and holding their hand along that course?
WAYNE WILLIAMS: Yeah, I think that that's
a really good point because you can get lost in the course.
So one habit I have is actually on a regular basis.
I literally show where we are in the course.
So where are we?
What are the learning objectives?
I go over those learning objectives.
How does the course work that we're actually
engaged in now-- how does it relate back
to the overall learning?
And then I try to tie that back into some current events.
So where is the--
whatever the topic is, how is that actually
happening in the real world?
So not only the examples in the textbook, but is there
some current events?
And along the way, especially teaching courses like Taxation--
and you may have an event that happens, a case that comes up.
You can bring that back into the classroom,
and it may highlight the exact subject matter that we're
covering in the course.
So by doing that, I can get some dialogue going about the topic,
do what Professor Schirmer said.
Now I have them thinking about the topic differently,
and now they can use it and apply it.
So by making sure we go over the course syllabus, not
just at the beginning but also through Canvas,
making sure the course is well structured
throughout every week, knowing what's
upcoming in the next week-- sometimes
I even give a highlight of what is
to be anticipated over the next few weeks
if there's a big project coming due.
I try to use not only the online tools but also the lecture
in order to reinforce it.
MIKE SCHIRMER: Great.
Yeah, I agree.
It's super important to have good structure
in several places.
Of course, the syllabus needs to be
fully developed, complete with a roadmap
to guide them to success.
That needs to be mirrored in the course site, in Canvas,
and then those elements need to be reinforced in the class
meetings.
One of the things I always start the class meeting is,
let's start with a review of some of the things
we accomplished over the course of the last week,
and then brings it into the current topics,
tell them what the plans are for the week, when things are going
to be due, remind him of that, and how
this links to the future weeks.
So sure, we're in the core of the moment,
but we're also looking back and looking forward
at the same time.
And for graded assignments, I will do the mapping
for them is how those relate to the course learning outcomes
and then how those relate to program outcomes
too because a lot of what we do is
linked to the program outcomes to guide them towards success.
And with the developmental items,
I do have to remind them that they are designed for them to be
successful in the graded elements and that they need
to take these things seriously because they're--
I also give them-- these are opportunities for them
to ask questions of me for clarity or guidance
to get them to success.
WAYNE WILLIAMS: Professor Schirmer,
he's showing off now because he kind of gave some
behind the scenes of what--
MIKE SCHIRMER: The secret sauce.
WAYNE WILLIAMS: The secret sauce.
He said "mapping."
So there are no questions, Drew, that are unintended, like we're
just giving busywork.
Each and every question--
the student pointed out-- really has
something to do with what we're going to ask on that exam
to assess where they are learning,
getting mastery of the subject matter.
And we've thought about that before the course even was open.
DREW: Yeah, that planning aspect seems
imperative to both of your courses
and really your pedagogy overall in the way that you teach.
And two things that keep coming up-- specifically,
Wayne, you said this.
You talk a lot about the real world
as that's really the touching the wall,
as you mentioned before.
That's the outcome, preparing them for the real world.
How do you find the ability to push them further?
Julie McKenna gave us a really interesting perspective
on what she's looking for in college.
JULIE MCKENNA: One of my favorite things
to think about sometimes when I get down
is that great people push you to be great also
because they make you feel that you, too, can achieve greatness.
The idea of self-efficacy, that what
you believe you can accomplish you
can do-- that is something that I love about Temple, the fact
that they are constantly encouraging
their students to take that next step to push themselves
a little bit further.
When it comes to whether this school helps me
with what I really want to do with my life,
I'd say absolutely.
I wasn't sure what I wanted to do when I graduated
with my liberal arts degree.
I wasn't sure, so I was asking my parents-- similarly to Maya,
I was like, I have no idea what I want to do,
but I have so much background in entertainment.
My sister actually went to the University of the Arts
in Center City for her bachelor's in musical theater,
and she loved Philadelphia because there's so much art
here, there's so much culture here,
there's so much self-expression in this city.
And for me, as somebody who wants
to go into event and entertainment management,
that's completely beautiful, completely great.
I want to be part of that culture.
I want to be part of that innovation,
bringing people's real-life stories
to the forefront of people's minds
and basically just helping people achieve
that flow where you really feel like everything that you're
doing is at the perfect level that you're at.
So I know it's a big ask for professors to really bring
the most out of their students.
It's obviously something that I think you guys would both agree
is important.
Wayne, Mike, how do we do that?
WAYNE WILLIAMS: Yeah, so day one, one of the first things--
so everybody does the introduction,
and everybody thinks it's meaningless,
like, what's my name and where am I from and what's my major.
And so most of my classes are upper-class courses,
so they're in the junior and senior year, and on day one,
I always ask them, Drew, what are you
going to do after you graduate?
And so there's two things that I'm trying to signal their.
Number one, I want you to assume you're
going to get through this course,
so don't worry about this course because we're
going to do this together.
And number two, you're going to graduate,
and so then what do you tell out loud?
Maybe it's never been something you've done before,
but now you have to say it in front of your peers.
And sometimes it's like, I don't know,
or I haven't had work experience,
so I'm still trying to figure it out.
And so for me, that's a great answer because each one-- when
the students give that, I'm actually writing that down.
What it does is it allows for me to anchor
exactly where the baseline of each section is.
So some sections are different than others, same course.
So now I have this anchoring mechanism
that identifies some of their interests,
so as I'm going through the material,
I can just-- when I pull out my sheet at the beginning of class,
I can think about who are the students in here, what's
important to them to know.
And so that also gives me an opportunity
to talk about SPOs, student professional organizations.
How do you get involved in that?
So I ask, is there anyone involved in the SPO,
allow for them to speak about their SPO.
And then I also will bring in professionals
that may be going to SPOs that the other students who
are less likely to engage--
they get a real opportunity to see someone
from the industry come in and talk about internships,
job opportunities.
So now they can actually say, you know what, I could do that,
and all I have to do is send in my resume.
And it's upcoming, and so that usually
helps the students to see themselves postgraduation.
MIKE SCHIRMER: That's a great question.
I do the intros as well, but I think
I'm going to take that one and kind of spice
mine up a little bit because I usually end with, tell us
a fun fact about yourself, which is great and can get some--
WAYNE WILLIAMS: It is.
MIKE SCHIRMER: --laughs and get people--
and it actually helps me get a better understanding
of the diversity of the type of folks that we have in the class.
But I like that, where do you see yourself
in five years, almost like an interview question.
Interestingly, just today, I was having discussion
with the students about the extra credit that's
baked into the course, and the idea here
is that these students are involved in these student
professional organizations.
They go to events where there's a speaker.
And so we give them the opportunity
to do a brief writeup about the speaker, the topic,
and some key takeaways, and I tell them, one page,
double-spaced.
Let's try to keep it manageable.
But I said, on the next page, I need
you to show me some evidence that at least you've
attempted to network with the speaker, and so for in-person,
that could be a picture, a little screenshot,
or a photo of a business card.
And I said, but quite frankly, a lot of times
I've gone to events, I'm speaking,
I run out of business cards.
And so if that happens or if they don't have any at all,
then show me a screenshot of a LinkedIn invitation.
I know you all have LinkedIn accounts.
And again, I don't need to see that they've accepted,
but I at least need to see that you've
tried to attempt to build that network out.
It's so important, I said, because we
need you to be successful, not in that first job.
We need you to have a successful career
and successful professional experience.
And this is one of the things that
helps set the stage for that so that you can develop
those interpersonal skills.
I said, for a lot of us, it may be
challenging to go up to a speaker that's well renowned
and has a great position from this organization.
It takes us out of our comfort zone.
However, we need to be able to do that
and to be able to interact with each other effectively.
DREW: Yeah, I love everything you guys are saying.
I love the point about anchoring it, conversation,
getting to know your students, and not taking
the intros as something for granted,
instead making it a moment where you can really
personalize things, really get to know your students.
And we actually heard that from a student, Maya.
She told us something very similar to that,
so let's listen in.
MAYA: And I really enjoy what I'm learning,
and I think the professors are really--
they're really good at helping you figure out what exactly you
want to do in the field and pushing you
towards getting those internships
and those professional development opportunities.
Even in my first MIS class in the spring
semester, when I first got into the curriculum,
my professor saw me--
I would sit in like the first or second row with my friend,
and she saw me.
She was like, oh, you're an MIS major.
How would you feel about being an information technology
assistant for one of my classes next semester?
I was like, oh, wow.
I really wasn't expecting that because I didn't really
say anything to her.
I didn't mention that I was interested in that.
And she saw that I had potential,
and that really pushed me to want
to learn more about the major and actually, yeah,
be dedicated.
DREW: As Maya said, it's not uncommon for a professor
to see a student, reach out.
And it sounds like you guys do that all the time,
and that's great to hear.
But let's talk about that experience.
How can a professor get better on the interpersonal side?
We talk all the time about pedagogy,
about assignments and assessments.
In terms of getting to know your students,
how can you get better?
How did you get better, and how are you still getting better?
MIKE SCHIRMER: One of the great resources--
we have a tremendous wealth of resources to help us
in our teaching profession, both in Fox and at Temple University,
and I've taken advantage of the opportunity
to have observers come into my classroom,
both from the Center for the Advancement of Teaching
and then peer observers from Fox.
And through that process, regardless of who you are,
there's always an opportunity to improve.
And I think, anyway, for faculty,
we should be inquisitive in nature, I think,
and looking for ways to improve our craft.
And getting feedback from observations, I think,
is a real useful tool.
At least I've found it to be like that.
And I take a page from my corporate experience
in education and training, corporate education training,
where that was actually part of the process.
We would have a lot-- there was a lot of team training events,
and so we would coach each other and do debriefs
on what went well, what didn't go well,
and so sort of taking that mindset
and apply it in the classroom, always looking
for new ways of doing it or better ways of doing
what I'm doing right now.
But I think you have to be open to that, too,
and for some folks, that could be a scary proposition.
I get that.
You're opening yourself up to what
could be considered criticism, but it's how you frame it.
I like to think that I apply this to my grading
as well in the terms of the feedback that I give,
where I tell them that these are the opportunities for you
to improve.
You've got some-- or this needs strength.
You could strengthen this doing this, that, and the other thing,
so it's kind of how you sort couch it as well
and take the edge off it.
WAYNE WILLIAMS: Yeah, I think it's an ongoing process.
So the one word that comes up for me is "community."
It's in the mission of Temple.
It's part of the values of Temple.
So if I think about what's different from the beginning
of my career just in the classroom,
it was more about content, and I think now it's
a lot more about community.
I play a role in the community, so I
can see Professor Schirmer walking the halls.
And it's not about what's going on in his class.
It's like, there's a relationship
where, how are you doing?
And so if I can take that and use that same approach if I'm
standing in line next to a student and just-- not
class-oriented, just, how are you doing, how are you
doing in your other classes, what's
going on with you, what are some of the activities
that you did this weekend, and having
that kind of human approach, then it forms that community,
builds that trust.
And by engendering that trust, now, knock on the door,
here's that student.
Now I can ask them more about what's their experience.
Office hours for me always start out
with the same first question-- tell me your story.
How did you get to Temple?
I don't even start going into the homework
or anything like that.
I want to know that story about how they actually came here,
what are some of their dreams.
You find out things like, I always--
I love music or I wanted to--
I play an instrument or something that you wouldn't see,
that fun fact that Professor Schirmer talked about.
And so to me, that's another way to engage students
outside of the classroom that's important.
And so by building community, it makes people know who you are,
and that's just making yourself approachable to others.
So I just think of it as like moving into a new neighborhood.
DREW: I like that.
I like that idea of a new neighborhood,
but I really like that you framed it as community.
It's funny that you say that because that's
some of the reason and some of the things
that we heard from the students-- community.
They came here for the community,
and that's not in any small part thanks to both of you
and other members of the Temple community
because, as you just said, Wayne,
when you're a part of the community,
you're also a part of building and maintaining and adjusting
and evolving the culture and community.
And that's what we do at Temple.
That's what people like yourselves do at Temple.
So I really like everything you guys said.
Let's end on something that I think
is not new news but something that
is ubiquitous to every student.
We heard from two students, specifically Nosa and Nicholas,
about what makes the classroom the most enjoyable.
Let's listen in.
NOSA: I'd say when professors are
engaged with the class, really make it seem like they care--
I hate to sound biased, but especially with the MIS courses
I've taken, I feel like every professor I've had
so far was really engaged with the students,
cared about the topics they were teaching,
and made sure we were well equipped for any tests or quiz
or any project we had to do.
NICHOLAS: I would say, personally, for me,
it's definitely the energy and their character.
Most of the professors that I have throughout my legal studies
curriculum and even just some of the professors in the Fox
School of Business, when they come to class early
and they're very open, a lot of energy,
it brightens up the room, and you
see other students, who might have be
potentially having a bad day--
their faces automatically lightens up.
DREW: Yeah, so like I said, nothing new, a happy professor
makes for a happy classroom, sure.
But that's also, like everything else we've talked about, easier
said than done, and what the listeners don't know right now
is that we're recording this on a very gloom,
rainy Monday morning, way too long into the semester.
You guys haven't had a day off in God knows how many weeks.
You both are going through it.
Let's talk about, from the community,
the individual and the individual professor.
How do you all take care of yourselves--
or how do you try to, at least-- in these long semesters so
that every class you can come in, you're energized,
you're excited, and therefore getting the students energized
and excited?
How do you maintain your own mental and physical health
throughout a semester to stay at that form?
WAYNE WILLIAMS: I want to listen.
How do you do that?
DREW: Yeah, Mike, why don't you start us off?
Answer the question we're all waiting for, yeah.
MIKE SCHIRMER: I'm still a learning scholar,
but I can tell you how much I appreciate my colleagues,
you all.
Seeing your smiling face, Professor Williams,
when we're going through the halls--
and that just gives me some energy,
to be able to go in-- because typically, I
see you when I'm on my way to go teach between classes.
And just even the few seconds of interaction and just to see,
it's just like, yeah, this is good, and I can do this.
I don't have to feel like I'm in isolation.
WAYNE WILLIAMS: Yeah, the same thing I was thinking, isolation.
MIKE SCHIRMER: Exactly, because sometimes the one--
I tell folks, being a faculty member
is you, for the most part, can pretty much
manage your own game.
You're in control of this.
And yeah, you do the upfront investment,
and then you manage it throughout the semester.
It does take a tremendous amount of energy,
and some days you give more than you get.
But it's knowing when you see your friends, your colleagues,
the smiling faces--
that's when it's like, yeah, no, I
can do this, probably in the same way that the students,
especially when they're in their group projects--
and they can interact and at least have a little bit of fun.
WAYNE WILLIAMS: You walk in the classroom certain days,
and you can tell where the class is.
And even if I'm fired up and they're not fired up,
I might ask, where are you?
MIKE SCHIRMER: I do that too.
WAYNE WILLIAMS: And so this is not a day
for me to start lecturing.
This is a, can I have somebody volunteer to play some music?
So they come in, they turn on the music, and I'm like,
let's spend the day working, flipping the classroom.
Get some work done.
Work on the next assignment that's due.
I'll then put up on the board what's coming due,
and so I'll have them work on their own.
Last five minutes of the class, I'll
turn the music down, reorient them, tell them,
have a great day.
And so for a lot of them, it's like, whew,
I had an exam that was coming up the next day,
and thank you so much for doing that.
You recognize it.
Because you could see the trouble on their face.
And so that's important.
Again, I think the feedback, so for me,
getting the feedback from students--
and so how do I do it?
I think it's three ways.
There's number one.
I have somebody outside who says, you need to get some rest.
So rest is like--
and so for me, rest is not doing and not
reading and maybe getting some sunshine because that's helpful.
And so I appreciate my sunshine.
And number two is caffeine.
It's not beyond me to have a cup of coffee next to the podium
right during the day.
And then I think the third thing that I kind of do just
to stay restorative is exactly what Mike said,
just engaging with staff and going out to lunch.
Let me go to lunch with somebody today.
Let me eat lunch with somebody today so I'm not isolated
and so I don't allow my own troubled mind to dictate
what's really going on.
We're all fighting to get to different goals,
and so if I'm better, then they can be better and vice versa.
This is a learning environment in which
I'm taking the energy back from them.
DREW: You came so close to seeing it, Wayne,
and since you don't want to say it, I'll be the one to say it.
What he really means to say is if you're a student,
you should also bring some energy if you can.
That'll come off back to your professor as well.
It's almost like, Mike, you were right
when you said at the beginning that it's
kind of a two-way relationship, that you're not
the arbiter of all things correct and all the information
and just like the student isn't beholden on you
to bring all the energy.
It goes both ways.
Gentlemen, I really appreciate you coming on this podcast.
I appreciate you, and I know the rest of the Temple community
does as well.
Thank you guys for joining me for this episode.
